Curse

Gmr Leon · Dec 30, 2009, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Let's lay out the definitions that relate to our discussion, shall we?

In reality:
Life=A corresponding state, existence, or principle of existence conceived of as belonging to the soul
Death=Also called spiritual death. loss or absence of spiritual life.

Now, I was unaware of that definition in regards to life, but that is essentially what I'm trying to get across here. The soul is not yet dead in Tyria, and as such, still qualifies as alive.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

However, to others, this is not the case. I was speaking from a general idea and bringing up the different views. Now you're showing that you're trying to force your philosophical beliefs on others by telling them your views of this topic.

..What else is the self? The body and soul together? And simply by telling them my views, I am not forcing them on others, however, by attempting to suggest that life only exists as long as the mind exists otherwise the self ceases to exist and that is death, then am I forcing them on others. Simply telling someone your views is not forcing anything.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If Grenth and the Underworld (untrue, instead the afterlife as a whole) didn't exist, they'd do just as they do now: Exist. There is no difference on this, they just wouldn't have their version of a retirement home.

But your argument is still flawed as a lack of realization does not mean that something did not occur. For instance, take the case of a baby and an adult playing "peek-a-boo" with the baby by hiding his or her face behind their hands. The baby doesn't realize that the adult is still there, but that doesn't mean the adult is not there. If your point were to be true, then it would require all perceptions of the being, not just one's own perception. Even without believing they are dead, ghosts will do things which they cannot while living. For instance, the curator from rin will walk on the sulfurous wastes, or will continue on without water, food, or sleep (assuming those are not necessary for a spirit). Or the spirits Gwen helps out in The Flight North, they will repeat the events, yet they have no clue of their own death. Constantly they re enact their failure which led to the Charr being able to advance and eventually cause the Searing.

What I was intending to mean was to the self. A lack of realization on the self's part means that as far as they're aware, nothing happened, while something may in fact have happened, until they're told, it may as well not have. Although technically I'd still say that the transition they call death is nonexistent, even if it does occur, it's not as if they're really dying.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Just because a spirit doesn't perceive his own death doesn't mean he'll live as if he was alive. He'll act similarly, yes, but not the same, and that by far doesn't mean he is "alive."

While true, that does not display life, the very act of doing anything and having conscious activity should be a clear sign of life as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Once more you're forcing your philosophical view of reality upon us. You speak as if reality isn't dualistic - can you know for sure? No. But the death of the brain does mean death, yes (even in the so called brain-dead state, the brain is active, just unable to move move the body). But the death of the personality is not always the same as the death of the brain.

But that is beside the point, though the way your forcing your view isn't the reference to reality, but the fact that if there is a soul, that death is not just death of the body, when it really is.

How about I go and murder a few people in a hospital, run them through some scans, and tell you if there's any evidence of mental activity after death? That's not the point though, there have been quite a few experiments to test the existence of the soul, with each one failing to prove so. If our reality is dualistic, it certainly has a way of concealing it. And actually, unless I'm mistaken, as I looked into the definition of brain-dead to be a bit more certain, the brain is no longer functioning when it's classified as such.

And death of the personality isn't death of the brain, this is true, as the personality is in a state of constant change. One moment I may be discussing this side, the next I may not be due to an alteration in my perspective. I think we're a bit off on what we're trying to discuss here, though, are you going on about death in regards to the body? Of course the body dies, but the person does not. Therefore death cannot be pinned to both.

When someone dies in reality, we acknowledge the death of the body and person, for the most part. Although you do tend to get those who go to mediums and the like to try and maintain communication with them.

However, in Tyria, the person remains alive, would it make you feel better to say existent? Whatever the case, as far as I'm concerned, they're alive and well.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Not really, and this shouldn't be an issue with you either, due to your location. The concept of the soul is a common and known idea - even to those who are materialistic in their belief of life (that is, don't believe in the soul, like you implied for yourself and slipped in above). Saying someone dies and knowing that souls exist in GW would, even to materialists, show that death means passing on, or losing one's body to be just a soul. I do not see how this can be confusing since it is such a wide known and seen concept.

Actually, I was just referring to how to present my viewpoint without confusing people that aren't you, as you mentioned you being able to comprehend it, but what are the chances of others doing the same.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

So because it is another universe, we should redefine anything we see fit? Even though it is used in game as the same meaning?

Using the argument that it is another universe so death is not the same (which is not true, as I've tried to point out, but since you're clearly a materialist I guess my words would fall on deaf ears) as reality's death and thus allows a redefining the word is flawed greatly. If my body stopped functioning and I was a spirit, as long as I knew I was a spirit, I would say I was dead. I would be dead because death is the cease of a functioning body, not a functioning soul.

In essence, what you yourself define death in reality is still death in Tyria. Why? Because the body ceases function. Yes, you still perceive yourself as a being, but you are still dead. You are still just a soul.

See this is where our main point of contention is. I think, or would like to think, the only reason brain death is considered death in the United States is due to the halting of conscious mental activity. Considering this, the fact that conscious mental activity does not cease after death in Tyria, it would not be appropriate to classify death of the body as death. That's all I'm really attempting to say here, for the most part.

Each culture has its own definition of death, anyway, so why should this be such a big deal? Some cultures view death as occurring when the heart stops functioning, others, like our own, when the brain stops functioning. This is despite the fact that the brain can continue functioning for a short amount of time after the heart stops functioning, and vice versa. So why do cultures define death differently, regardless of medical evidence? Because it's a difference in believing where the essence, the soul, the mind, whatever you prefer to call it, lies in the body.

Since we actually know that the soul does not lie in the body in Tyria, or at least does not appear to considering the separation after the body stops functioning, then it would necessitate a redefinition of death. This isn't simply a case of it being a different Universe, despite my reasoning earlier, this is something that would dramatically alter our own definition of death in reality were it found that souls existed. So, tell me then, why shouldn't we?

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And you know they don't have cells, how? If they are made out of a material, whether it is gas, liquid, solid, plasma, or whatever a semi-gas/semi-liquid (ectoplasm?

) would be called, they would still have cells.

Well, like I said, as far as we know. Let's get some spiritual reproduction going on and then we'll have firm evidence they've also cells.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though if that is why they are exclusive to Cantha... what about the constant Guild Wars and the Scarab Plague? Or Joko's invasion? The Searing and the Cataclysm even, and the Charr/Human war. All those would produce equal, or more, souls in short times. So then there would be a need of Tyrian and Elonian Envoys.

That's what I'm getting at, it's curious that there don't appear to be. You'd think they'd resurrect us or something when we stupidly dance in front of Abaddon and get killed by him, saying it's not our time or something of the sort.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I don't call your "refined" spirits the same as the "formless" spirits. These are two different subjects, to be honest. And surely, the presence of Titans imply that a "blank slate" is needed, though that could just be that the "essence of memory" is a portion of the soul being devoured for energy. And after all, the place is near the River of Souls, perfect feeding ground. Why have your food supply turned into more mouths to feed?

Well then, what are they being drained for? To be placed in the River of Souls? To charge the Soulweir? Considering the Flesh Gluttons aren't a part of the main forces, I wouldn't say they're being kept to themselves to be entirely consumed.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

But you are changing the definition! Not expanding it. You're changing it from the cease of body functionality to the lack of existence on a whole scale (body, soul, and mind).

We're thinking of a different term then. Where you're talking about death, I was talking about life. I'm extending life to being present beyond the body, whereas I was under the impression you were restricting it to the body, which it seemed you were.

Oh, and about me forcing my views on others, if I really was, I'd be arguing against the very existence of these souls, considering I don't personally believe in them in reality.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 30, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Let's lay out the definitions that relate to our discussion, shall we?

In reality:
Life=A corresponding state, existence, or principle of existence conceived of as belonging to the soul
Death=Also called spiritual death. loss or absence of spiritual life.

Now, I was unaware of that definition in regards to life, but that is essentially what I'm trying to get across here. The soul is not yet dead in Tyria, and as such, still qualifies as alive.

Funny how you only put the definitions which suite your need. And the definition for life that you gave is for eternal life, as it says right next to the definition on Dictionary.com

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

life /laɪf/ /laɪvz/ –noun
1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.
2. the sum of the distinguishing phenomena of organisms, esp. metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment.
3. a corresponding state, existence, or principle of existence conceived of as belonging to the soul: eternal life.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life
There are more, up to 25 to be exact, but those are for other uses of life, such as "life of the party."

Note that definitions 1 and 2 point to organism - which a soul clearly is not. And seeing how a soul is not eternal, 3 would not fit.

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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

death /dɛθ/ –noun
1. the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism. Compare brain death.
2. the state of being dead: to lie still in death.
3. Also called spiritual death. loss or absence of spiritual life.

Like life, there are multiple unrelated definitions, so I cut them out. "the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions of an organism" - once more, not fitting your desired definition. These two definitions are also the most common.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

..What else is the self? The body and soul together? And simply by telling them my views, I am not forcing them on others, however, by attempting to suggest that life only exists as long as the mind exists otherwise the self ceases to exist and that is death, then am I forcing them on others. Simply telling someone your views is not forcing anything.

"What else is the self" - some have and would say that it is the body, or just one memories and not the personality, or none of those and say that it is the soul which doesn't have a personality but is still different from others' souls (these explanations are coming from my memory of Philosophy class). And you are not forcing by telling, but forcing by saying "this is how it is in Tyria" when we cannot be sure that is the case. Yes, we know that there are souls, but we cannot say what the true self is. We cannot tell if memories and personalities are needed for a self, which would go to your Leech Tunnels argument, in that the act of taking memory doesn't kill the spirit, or the self.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

What I was intending to mean was to the self. A lack of realization on the self's part means that as far as they're aware, nothing happened, while something may in fact have happened, until they're told, it may as well not have. Although technically I'd still say that the transition they call death is nonexistent, even if it does occur, it's not as if they're really dying.

Though if they are told then they will just deny it as "denial and disorientation are common upon the newly dead." Of course, we don't know what that transition is, or even if they are fully aware of the act. The soul leaving the body might be an act caused by the Id of the mind thus being almost always automatic and the soul doesn't have to be aware of the transition of the soul leaving the body (maybe staying in the body suffocates the soul? We don't know what would happen if the soul didn't leave the body truth be told).

The closest case we have a this "transition" is the soul jumping out of the body, though the jumping out part uses a pop up animation and thus may not be entirely accurate to how it would look.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

While true, that does not display life, the very act of doing anything and having conscious activity should be a clear sign of life as far as I'm concerned.

Unless you ignore the eternal life idea which you posted, which in fact goes against the case of the souls as a soul is not eternal. And if you drop that definition, all you have left is what separates the moving organic from the inorganic and non-moving organic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

How about I go and murder a few people in a hospital, run them through some scans, and tell you if there's any evidence of mental activity after death? That's not the point though, there have been quite a few experiments to test the existence of the soul, with each one failing to prove so. If our reality is dualistic, it certainly has a way of concealing it.

Or we, being corporeal, have no method yet of how to find the incorporeal.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Though, are you going on about death in regards to the body? Of course the body dies, but the person does not. Therefore death cannot be pinned to both.

Except in the case of eternal life, which is not the case here, death is the death of the organic body. So while the soul lives on, it is still called death. A tricky and confusing topic: One can still exist in death, and I do not mean being an undead.

It is easier to just use terms people are familiar with, instead of using unusual, incorrect, or brand new terms.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

See this is where our main point of contention is. I think, or would like to think, the only reason brain death is considered death in the United States is due to the halting of conscious mental activity.

Actually, I think, though it may not be the case, that brain death is considered death because the person cannot act for themselves. They may be able to think, their soul - if such exists in reality - may be in their body, or it might not be and they are unable to think. It is death because we cannot know what the true case is, so instead of having a copy of the abortion argument, a set line was put. Meaning the person might not actually be dead, but we know the person cannot be respond, thus it would become a case of mercy killing if they were deemed alive - to prevent such, call them dead.

In other words, they are called dead to avoid massive debates and arguments, I would think. Which kind of puts your analogy out the window.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Since we actually know that the soul does not lie in the body in Tyria, or at least does not appear to considering the separation after the body stops functioning, then it would necessitate a redefinition of death. This isn't simply a case of it being a different Universe, despite my reasoning earlier, this is something that would dramatically alter our own definition of death in reality were it found that souls existed. So, tell me then, why shouldn't we?

Er... they souls are in the bodies, this is rather clear. They just separate, that doesn't mean that they are always 2 loosely connected or completely unconnected things.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

That's what I'm getting at, it's curious that there don't appear to be. You'd think they'd resurrect us or something when we stupidly dance in front of Abaddon and get killed by him, saying it's not our time or something of the sort.

Though in the storyline, our characters don't die, and the Envoys are not in the realms of the gods/rift or where ever you prefer to consider the Realm of Torment until we get confirmation.

So the reason why we don't see them is because we're not dead, and every person who dies in the storyline, aside from the enemies, after our Ascension for Prophecies dies elsewhere, same in fact goes for Nightfall (even though, lore wise, there is no Ascension there).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Well then, what are they being drained for? To be placed in the River of Souls? To charge the Soulweir? Considering the Flesh Gluttons aren't a part of the main forces, I wouldn't say they're being kept to themselves to be entirely consumed.

I would assume the spirits came from the River of Souls - perhaps fleeing from being devoured or stored in the abyss which the River is supposedly said to lead (according to the .dat). Assuming this, the spirits would have gone where they were not meant to go: The Leech Tunnels. Thus, their run in with the Flesh Gluttons was unintended.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

We're thinking of a different term then. Where you're talking about death, I was talking about life. I'm extending life to being present beyond the body, whereas I was under the impression you were restricting it to the body, which it seemed you were.

Not entirely, I am just keeping with the idea of the body being life and the soul being death. It is still existence - or what you call life - but it isn't the common idea of life. I am trying to keep the difference between life and death to be as similar to reality as possible to prevent confusion, where if I were to call being a soul life, well, everyone in Tyria would scream foul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Oh, and about me forcing my views on others, if I really was, I'd be arguing against the very existence of these souls, considering I don't personally believe in them in reality.

But that would be clearly outside of the lore. What I meant was that your forcing a portion of your view (for example, the self) while keeping to what is definite of the lore.

Gmr Leon · Dec 30, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Funny how you only put the definitions which suite your need. And the definition for life that you gave is for eternal life, as it says right next to the definition on Dictionary.com

I put the definitions which I viewed as being relevant, like I said. I am not entirely concerned with the body, which the other definitions relate to. Also, the italicized bits next to the definitions are examples to help explain the usage of the word with that definition in a particular scenario. The humor then lies on you for disregarding my initial statement prior to the provision of those definitions.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Like life, there are multiple unrelated definitions, so I cut them out. "the total and permanent cessation of all vital functions of an organism" - once more, not fitting your desired definition. These two definitions are also the most common.

Not desired because they're, again, irrelevant to what I view us discussing, and that is, and was, the soul.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

"What else is the self" - some have and would say that it is the body, or just one memories and not the personality, or none of those and say that it is the soul which doesn't have a personality but is still different from others' souls (these explanations are coming from my memory of Philosophy class). And you are not forcing by telling, but forcing by saying "this is how it is in Tyria" when we cannot be sure that is the case. Yes, we know that there are souls, but we cannot say what the true self is. We cannot tell if memories and personalities are needed for a self, which would go to your Leech Tunnels argument, in that the act of taking memory doesn't kill the spirit, or the self.

In the sense that the self is managed by memories and a personality stored or managed by the brain, I would say that the body then is in fact the self, to an extent. Saying that the soul lacks a personality makes it pointless fluff to me then, as I always viewed it as quite synonymous with the mind, which was, as I saw it, in our Universe, existing in the brain. That's perhaps my main fault, assuming that the self lies in the soul as the soul=mind and the mind itself is the self. That strikes me as common sense, so I'm foolish in that regard. I think it would make sense now then, why I would say that in Tyria the self lies in the soul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Of course, we don't know what that transition is, or even if they are fully aware of the act. The soul leaving the body might be an act caused by the Id of the mind thus being almost always automatic and the soul doesn't have to be aware of the transition of the soul leaving the body (maybe staying in the body suffocates the soul? We don't know what would happen if the soul didn't leave the body truth be told).

The transition always struck me as being quick, like being knocked unconscious and then reawakening to find yourself dragged to a new location, but we can't be certain, that's true. As to what happens if the soul doesn't leave the body, according to the Manuscripts, it would rot with the body, but that's another element that seems to have been altered.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Unless you ignore the eternal life idea which you posted, which in fact goes against the case of the souls as a soul is not eternal. And if you drop that definition, all you have left is what separates the moving organic from the inorganic and non-moving organic.

If you read the definition, disregarding the example of its usage, it seemed to me suggestive of life being a quality associated only with the soul. As you also looked there, you'll be aware of the absurd definition beneath related to "Christian Science" suggesting death doesn't even occur. That aside, even if I don't drop it, the definition was getting at what I've been trying to say, in a way, that life in regards to the individual is a quality tied to the soul and not merely the body.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Or we, being corporeal, have no method yet of how to find the incorporeal.

Although, if I didn't know any better, I'd say we're quite good at finding the electromagnetic spectrum which is almost a "ghostly" affair, seeing into other wavelengths of existence, if you will.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Except in the case of eternal life, which is not the case here, death is the death of the organic body. So while the soul lives on, it is still called death. A tricky and confusing topic: One can still exist in death, and I do not mean being an undead.

It is easier to just use terms people are familiar with, instead of using unusual, incorrect, or brand new terms.

I blame souls for this entire discussion. If the soul didn't exist, I wouldn't even be discussing this, but since they do, it seems necessary. If we were discussing the nature of death in reality, I'd be all for that usage of death, but given the spiritual attributes of death in both, one literally, one likely not, it seems even more so. As long as mental activity occurs, they're alive to me, and seeing that it does after death, means they're still alive, even if their body is no longer functioning. Which I've been continually repeating these past few posts.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Actually, I think, though it may not be the case, that brain death is considered death because the person cannot act for themselves. They may be able to think, their soul - if such exists in reality - may be in their body, or it might not be and they are unable to think. It is death because we cannot know what the true case is, so instead of having a copy of the abortion argument, a set line was put. Meaning the person might not actually be dead, but we know the person cannot be respond, thus it would become a case of mercy killing if they were deemed alive - to prevent such, call them dead.

In other words, they are called dead to avoid massive debates and arguments, I would think. Which kind of puts your analogy out the window.

Well, as I said though, from the definition I read, it's the complete halt of brain functions. Due to this, and an inability to read thoughts after death, the lack of brain activity is taken as a halting not only of a biological function but of all conscious activity permanently.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Er... they souls are in the bodies, this is rather clear. They just separate, that doesn't mean that they are always 2 loosely connected or completely unconnected things.

What I was aiming at is that the souls aren't in a particular organ of the body, like many try to tie it to in reality. In the cases mentioned, those cultures believed the soul exists in the heart.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though in the storyline, our characters don't die, and the Envoys are not in the realms of the gods/rift or where ever you prefer to consider the Realm of Torment until we get confirmation.

So the reason why we don't see them is because we're not dead, and every person who dies in the storyline, aside from the enemies, after our Ascension for Prophecies dies elsewhere, same in fact goes for Nightfall (even though, lore wise, there is no Ascension there).

We do die though, not storywise, but we do. I suppose that's the difference you're illustrating, but it's a pretty weak excuse not to make Envoys present in the other continents. Although it would get annoying after awhile, having to deal with them each time you died in a mission.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I would assume the spirits came from the River of Souls - perhaps fleeing from being devoured or stored in the abyss which the River is supposedly said to lead (according to the .dat). Assuming this, the spirits would have gone where they were not meant to go: The Leech Tunnels. Thus, their run in with the Flesh Gluttons was unintended.

I always viewed those in the River of Souls as being mostly unrefined, due to their appearance, despite being pulled out by the Dryders and tortured in the Gate of Pain mission retaining their form. So I saw it the opposite way, going from the Leech Tunnels to the River of Souls.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Not entirely, I am just keeping with the idea of the body being life and the soul being death. It is still existence - or what you call life - but it isn't the common idea of life. I am trying to keep the difference between life and death to be as similar to reality as possible to prevent confusion, where if I were to call being a soul life, well, everyone in Tyria would scream foul.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

First, there are three stages of "life," which is how the first part of this topic is split up. Each stage deals with a different type of body or location. The stages, as I have named them, are “Mortal Life,” “Ghostly Life,” and “Afterworld Life.”

Irony is fun, isn't it?

The first isn't ironic, but the latter two are, as they are souls, and you still call those stages life. So, either your views have changed since writing that, or I've made that fault clear to you.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

But that would be clearly outside of the lore. What I meant was that your forcing a portion of your view (for example, the self) while keeping to what is definite of the lore.

Considering that no part of the game, that I'm aware of, has touched on the self, except perhaps Razah, it's a tad difficult not to impress some view of the self into this sort of discussion.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 30, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

The italicized bits next to the definitions are examples to help explain the usage of the word with that definition in a particular scenario.

Though in reality all views of the soul points to it being eternal, as a mortal soul has, as far as I know at least, only existed in fiction and never in faith, thus the definition, not relating to works of fiction but instead faith and opinion of the soul, would be speaking of an eternal soul even if just the word soul were used.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

The humor then lies on you for disregarding my initial statement prior to the provision of those definitions.

"Lets lay out the definitions related to our discussion" - how did I disregard this? You pointed out 2 definitions, one per term, I pointed out others, more frequently used, definitions which I have been using.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Not desired because they're, again, irrelevant to what I view us discussing, and that is, and was, the soul.

The soul is the original topic, but we've delved into the difference between life and death and definition of the terms. Thus it is relevant. Albeit, the point for this particular discussion is without one.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Saying that the soul lacks a personality makes it pointless fluff to me then, as I always viewed it as quite synonymous with the mind, which was, as I saw it, in our Universe, existing in the brain. That's perhaps my main fault, assuming that the self lies in the soul as the soul=mind and the mind itself is the self. That strikes me as common sense, so I'm foolish in that regard. I think it would make sense now then, why I would say that in Tyria the self lies in the soul.

This is the view of every philosophical work I've read, that is, that the soul and the mind are one in the same. Personally, I disagree, as the soul seems to me more to be one's life force, while the mind is one's personality. That is, a soul is what makes us function, the mind is what separates us from others, and the body is the catalyst for the two.

And since a spirit can exist without memories, which is the base foundations for a personality (change the memories, you change the personality), it would seem that Tyria acts in a similar manner to my personal belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

The transition always struck me as being quick, like being knocked unconscious and then reawakening to find yourself dragged to a new location, but we can't be certain, that's true. As to what happens if the soul doesn't leave the body, according to the Manuscripts, it would rot with the body, but that's another element that seems to have been altered.

The Manuscripts clearly was altered there, as it says that either the spirit goes to the Hall of Heroes, or rots in the body. Seeing how we see spirits elsewhere, this cannot be so. However, it may be soul if a soul somehow managed to stay within a body. Which now makes me wonder how the undead's soul's states are - are they as withered as the bodies? Or are they unharmed due to the rotting of the bodies being stalled (presumably) with the undead?

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Although, if I didn't know any better, I'd say we're quite good at finding electromagnetic spectrum which is almost a "ghostly" affair, seeing into other wavelengths of existence, if you will.

And you just gave me a thought for editing my side project regarding my views of life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I blame souls for this entire discussion. If the soul didn't exist, I wouldn't even be discussing this, but since they do, it seems necessary. If we were discussing the nature of death in reality, I'd be all for that usage of death, but given the spiritual attributes of death in both, one literally, one likely not, it seems even more so. As long as mental activity occurs, they're alive to me, and seeing that it does after death, means they're still alive, even if their body is no longer functioning. Which I've been continually repeating these past few posts.

You know, if death meant non-existence, then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you, however, since that isn't the case, I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Of course, by the definition you pulled, there would be more kinds of death than spiritual death, hence "also called" at the beginning of your definition. So really, by that definition, we can say both cases is a case of death. Death of the body, and death of the spirit.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

What I was aiming at is that the souls aren't in a particular organ of the body, like many try to tie it to in reality. In the cases mentioned, those cultures believed the soul exists in the heart.

A simple misunderstanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

We do die though, not storywise, but we do. I suppose that's the difference you're illustrating, but it's a pretty weak excuse not to make Envoys present in the other continents. Although it would get annoying after awhile, having to deal with them each time you died in a mission.

If it isn't purposely done in a quest or a mission, then by most understanding, in the official lore, it wouldn't take place. And instead of having Envoys appear every time you die, whether in a mission or explorable, it would just be easier to set up the Resurrection Shrines with a maintaining personnel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I always viewed those in the River of Souls as being mostly unrefined, due to their appearance, despite being pulled out by the Dryders and tortured in the Gate of Pain mission retaining their form. So I saw it the opposite way, going from the Leech Tunnels to the River of Souls.

The direction in which the River of Souls goes is an interesting one. Within the domain of pain, it heads one way (away from the gate of pain), in the Nightfallen Jahai, the river again heads away from the gate of pain. Thus, the River of Souls goes to direction.

But my question for you, Leon, is why would the spirits who know nothing go to the River of Souls to go into the "abyss"? In fact, how would they know to go there? And what good to the demons would heading there do? Seeing how the dam and the Leech Tunnels is done so by the demons (supposedly on the tunnels, due to the Flesh Gluttons, that is), sending unrefined souls - if they are such - to the abyss would work against the demons, would it not?

At least, to me, this abyss sounds like a natural occurring place, perhaps one which destroys spirits to send the energy back to the Mists.

Also, they cannot be "refined spirits" as the idea just does not work with how widespread those models are. Would Thorn have mindless spirits working with him? Would the spirits released from the Soul Batteries (it's hard to spot, but in Abaddon's Mouth mission, when you destroy the final seals, if you see the soul battery, it explodes with 5 or so "refined spirits" or "formless spirits" coming out of it), clearly not all are such. I think this is just another model for spirits, their shadow form - if it has any lore behind it, and isn't just a way to create spirits which avoids the issue of the lacking z-axis and going through models.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Irony is fun, isn't it?

The first isn't ironic, but the latter two are, as they are souls, and you still call those stages life. So, either your views have changed since writing that, or I've made that fault clear to you.

In the op, I use the term life in the idea of existence. I was speaking of one usage of the word, and later another usage. Not that ironic if you put thought behind it.

Of course, I never did deny that existing as a spirit is not life (note: saying "the body being life and the soul being death" does not mean that the soul is not life), but what I deny is that it is not death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Considering that no part of the game, that I'm aware of, has touched on the self, except perhaps Razah, it's a tad difficult not to impress some view of the self into this sort of discussion.

You don't have to bring in your own idea of the self though, you could do what I attempt to do and find a median between the various opinions and views, or find one which fits the lore and back it up, not just imputing your own view without any backing to why it would be the case in lore.

Gmr Leon · Dec 31, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though in reality all views of the soul points to it being eternal, as a mortal soul has, as far as I know at least, only existed in fiction and never in faith, thus the definition, not relating to works of fiction but instead faith and opinion of the soul, would be speaking of an eternal soul even if just the word soul were used.

I doubt all views of the soul do so, the majority, yes, but I bet there's a minority somewhere that believes otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

"Lets lay out the definitions related to our discussion" - how did I disregard this? You pointed out 2 definitions, one per term, I pointed out others, more frequently used, definitions which I have been using.

In saying that I chose the ones that suit me, you disregarded that I was choosing the ones that related to the discussion from my perspective. In this way, both of us chose definitions that suited our viewing of the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This is the view of every philosophical work I've read, that is, that the soul and the mind are one in the same. Personally, I disagree, as the soul seems to me more to be one's life force, while the mind is one's personality. That is, a soul is what makes us function, the mind is what separates us from others, and the body is the catalyst for the two.

And since a spirit can exist without memories, which is the base foundations for a personality (change the memories, you change the personality), it would seem that Tyria acts in a similar manner to my personal belief.

If the soul is the life force then the body shouldn't die until the soul is terminated then, if I understand what you're getting at here correctly. That doesn't click with the information we have on Tyria, as the soul still exists despite the body ceasing operation. Unless you're simply suggesting that the soul is what makes our mind exist and function or something of that sort, and the two working together permit us to consciously utilize our bodies.

I've not read many works that seriously consider the interaction between soul, mind, and body, if that isn't apparent here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which now makes me wonder how the undead's soul's states are - are they as withered as the bodies? Or are they unharmed due to the rotting of the bodies being stalled (presumably) with the undead?

I think if the Undead are created by forcing the soul into an old corpse, it may be that it does cease the degenerative processes in a way. How, I'm not sure, but it may. Then again, the majority of the Undead we encounter, excluding the Desolation's, are just bones, with maybe a few scraps of flesh, or a mix of the two. At least, as I recall, the majority we encounter in Kryta are more bone than flesh or flesh and bone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And you just gave me a thought for editing my side project regarding my views of life.

Views of life in a sentence: The majority of what we perceive is mostly illusory, due to the nature of humans to impose their subjective reality on objective reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

You know, if death meant non-existence, then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you, however, since that isn't the case, I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Of course, by the definition you pulled, there would be more kinds of death than spiritual death, hence "also called" at the beginning of your definition. So really, by that definition, we can say both cases is a case of death. Death of the body, and death of the spirit.

I don't see why death isn't defined as nonexistence, but that's just me and my views of reality again. At least if death is defined in a more personal manner, regarding the existence of the person or the self.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The direction in which the River of Souls goes is an interesting one. Within the domain of pain, it heads one way (away from the gate of pain), in the Nightfallen Jahai, the river again heads away from the gate of pain. Thus, the River of Souls goes to direction.

But my question for you, Leon, is why would the spirits who know nothing go to the River of Souls to go into the "abyss"? In fact, how would they know to go there? And what good to the demons would heading there do? Seeing how the dam and the Leech Tunnels is done so by the demons (supposedly on the tunnels, due to the Flesh Gluttons, that is), sending unrefined souls - if they are such - to the abyss would work against the demons, would it not?

At least, to me, this abyss sounds like a natural occurring place, perhaps one which destroys spirits to send the energy back to the Mists.

Also, they cannot be "refined spirits" as the idea just does not work with how widespread those models are. Would Thorn have mindless spirits working with him? Would the spirits released from the Soul Batteries (it's hard to spot, but in Abaddon's Mouth mission, when you destroy the final seals, if you see the soul battery, it explodes with 5 or so "refined spirits" or "formless spirits" coming out of it), clearly not all are such. I think this is just another model for spirits, their shadow form - if it has any lore behind it, and isn't just a way to create spirits which avoids the issue of the lacking z-axis and going through models.

I think we're misunderstanding each other here (and I'm not entirely sure if I understand your refined/formless definitions any longer). I wasn't talking about the actual direction of the River of Souls, what I was talking about was the process they go through. Do they go through the Leech Tunnels to then be inserted into the dammed area of the River of Souls? Or do they extract souls from the River to be placed in the Leech Tunnels to be later taken to the Foundry of Failed Creations to be turned into Titans? (This latter idea actually makes more sense to me.)

Returning to the refined/formless part...You've kind of lost me a bit. I think of unrefined/formless as being one in the same, with refined having a more solid (what we see of most ghosts on Tyria and in the Underworld) form. I see, however, where refined would be more appropriate in the case of those seen escaping the Door of Komalie to form the Titans. In the other cases though, they strike me as merely unrefined.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 31, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

In saying that I chose the ones that suit me, you disregarded that I was choosing the ones that related to the discussion from my perspective. In this way, both of us chose definitions that suited our viewing of the discussion.

Not really, you chose the ones that suit your perspective of the discussion and disregarded those which have a sway on the discussion, while I showed all those which could be related to the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

If the soul is the life force then the body shouldn't die until the soul is terminated then, if I understand what you're getting at here correctly.

Not quite. The body cannot live without the soul and the soul is needed for the body to live. This does not mean that the body will die when the soul leaves, this means that if the soul leaves the body will die, but the body still die while the soul is within the body, but at that moment the soul and mind will leave the body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

That doesn't click with the information we have on Tyria, as the soul still exists despite the body ceasing operation.

That's because I was speaking of my own view of reality, not Tyria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Unless you're simply suggesting that the soul is what makes our mind exist and function or something of that sort, and the two working together permit us to consciously utilize our bodies.

In terms of Tyria, I'm unsure if they are 2 or 3 at the moment. If they are three, then it is just like what I said above: The soul is needed for the body to live, but the soul is not needed to leave (first) for the body to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I've not read many works that seriously consider the interaction between soul, mind, and body, if that isn't apparent here.

Realized that by now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I think if the Undead are created by forcing the soul into an old corpse, it may be that it does cease the degenerative processes in a way. How, I'm not sure, but it may. Then again, the majority of the Undead we encounter, excluding the Desolation's, are just bones, with maybe a few scraps of flesh, or a mix of the two. At least, as I recall, the majority we encounter in Kryta are more bone than flesh or flesh and bone.

There are zombies (take the Ghouls for instance), though a majority are Skeletons, or mostly skeletal in appearance. Though due to not seeing the progression of normal undead (it is clear that Joko no longer decomposes), it cannot be certain that the decomposition stops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I don't see why death isn't defined as nonexistence, but that's just me and my views of reality again. At least if death is defined in a more personal manner, regarding the existence of the person or the self.

Probably due to the people who say things like "he'll exist as long as we remember him" or the like. Which would mean in their view that the soul is perception - but not perception of the self, perception of the whole (thus even Julius Caesar is still alive because we remember him).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I think we're misunderstanding each other here. I wasn't talking about the actual direction of the River of Souls, what I was talking about was the process they go through. Do they go through the Leech Tunnels to then be inserted into the dammed area of the River of Souls? Or do they extract souls from the River to be placed in the Leech Tunnels to be later taken to the Foundry of Failed Creations to be turned into Titans? (This latter idea actually makes more sense to me.)

Oh, I know you didn't mean regarding the direction of the River of Souls, I was bringing that up because it goes two directions thus (both directions technically starting from the Gate of Pain) because we need to know which way the River of Souls should go before we say that they first went through the Leech Tunnels. Basically, if the River of Souls starts elsewhere, why would they join mid-way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Returning to the refined/formless part...You've kind of lost me a bit. I think of unrefined/formless as being one in the same, with refined having a more solid (what we see of most ghosts on Tyria and in the Underworld) form. I see, however, where refined would be more appropriate in the case of those seen escaping the Door of Komalie to form the Titans. In the other cases though, they strike me as merely unrefined.

You said refined and I forgot that previously you called them unrefined not refined. I don't think there is a refined or unrefined idea to them. They are just another model for spirits. It is their "shadow form" mentioned in the manuscripts that allows them to go through anything and for everything to go through them (which really fits the current skill of the same name). Either they will take their mortal/body form, or they will take a more unanimous form which allows them to fly, go through objects, be unharmed, etc, but also prevent holding objects and from harming others. And that it is unrelated in general to Titans.

What is related to titans is the "demonic formless" spirits - those which have horns on them, and seems to be the older of the two models used. These exist within the Soul Batteries, in the spirit bridge, from the Door of Komalie, around the Halloween Cauldrons (no where else), and in the Foundry of Failed Creations. But these are not "Titan spirits" - instead they would either be tortured, insane, or evil spirits. As such, they are spirits which are more likely to become or are Titans, but not all will be the spirit form of Titans.

Grim Lich · Dec 31, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Man, has anyone told you two that your hard to keep up with? Maye it would be worth having these discussions before hand and adding them as footnotes.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 31, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I've been told that a lot, even by Leon. And a pre-posting discussion has occurred before, such as with my old research on the Centaurs. And even slightly on my Depths of Tyria structures research.

Gmr Leon · Dec 31, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Man, has anyone told you two that your hard to keep up with? Maye it would be worth having these discussions before hand and adding them as footnotes.

That's why I'm just taking a break at the moment. Besides that, you should have seen Durmand Priory over on GW2Guru when all the info was being released. Now that was hard to keep up with, considering it was multiple threads with discussions somewhat similar in nature to this one, in length and speed of response.

Grim Lich · Dec 31, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

It's not overtly hard, but I find myself having to read quite a bit, and with so many conflicting opinions, it's hard to make a sold descision(sp?) on something. Either way, I do find it all interesting, and it is fun to read, so I don't mind. Though it does make me question some of my views on things, like the Dragons, The Lich, and the Titans, I do still like following along in these threads.

Sadly I lack the time or patience to research as much as you two do, otherwise I would have more to say. Also you two have a knack at making me re-check facts six or seven times.

draxynnic · Jan 04, 2010, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

We've gone through this. Plasma is a state between gas and liquid. Draxynnic corrected you on this.

Plasma isn't between liquid and gas, it just has properties that are similar to each. As a state, it actually comes after gas.

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Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

I just looked over every quest in the Desolation, except for She Hungers, and I'm not even finding the dialogue where one of Joko's men mentioned that, so I can't say for certain.

A Deal's A Deal:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Kehmtut

"So the great Palawa Joko returns. I can't say everyone will be happy to see him back. But matters had gotten out of hand with Varesh's troops garrisoned here. Those demons enjoyed devouring souls, and with an undead army about...well, you get the idea. Here, this is from our coffers. We hope you will accept it."

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And you know they don't have cells, how? If they are made out of a material, whether it is gas, liquid, solid, plasma, or whatever a semi-gas/semi-liquid (ectoplasm? ) would be called, they would still have cells.

Why?

And in some cases...how? A biological cell has a structure that relies on its components being in the states they are in at temperatures we find comfortable - a mix of solid, liquid, and aqueous states. Cells as we know them couldn't exist in a life form composed mostly of plasma - while it's possible that they might have something similar, it could just as easily be a homogenous mass of plasma material constrained into a given shape.

On the discussion about the definition of death - I had a brief discussion with Leon during the Wintersday finale. Basically, I'd consider them to be different kinds of death - the biological death of the body (which in Tyria I would define as the moment the soul departs) and the final death of the consciousness.

If I had to choose one to be the one to apply the term "death" to, I'd probably label the biological death as such (since life after death is common enough in various religions to imagine that the people who believe in those religions at least consider the consciousness to remain after death) while the death of the consciousness would be "oblivion".